Interim Results 2025 Presentation to Investors and Analysts - Transcript PDF 102KB 11 pages

PAM KAUR

The $42 billion guidance includes market expectations of HIBOR implied above

2% in third quarter. So we’ve already said that HIBOR at a 1% impacts us by $100 million per month, so if you look overall, our HIBOR expectations as well as the impact of the $100 million

– all these are included when you look at our overall confidence in the BNII guidance for the year.

The BNII guidance is not just based on the forward curves. As we know, in Q2, very low HIBOR impacted us for around six to seven weeks. We have given more detail of it in the appendix, but a couple of things have moved around. The time deposits are now four points lower, and you look at those factors, and as we look for the rest of the year, there will be some upside and downside in terms of the timing of when the HIBOR shifts happen, as well as the dollar depreciation, how long it continues. In Q2, it was a tailwind for us.

In terms of ECLs, so from an ECL perspective, we only give you the 2025 number. It’s fair to say that we have always in the last few years stayed between the 30 to 40 basis points, sometimes a bit to the upper end, so we’re not giving any guidance beyond 2025 at this stage.

KIAN ABOUHOSSEIN, JP MORGAN: Two questions: the first one is related to tariffs. You gave guidance of 5% impact on revenues and I just wanted to see how we should think about that going forward, as you don’t see anything in the numbers today.

And the second question is related to stage 1 and stage 2 movements. Clearly, your stage 2 has deteriorated. You discuss PDs, which have been adjusted, and I’m trying to understand a little bit more detail around your movements, in particular in the corporate and commercial bank, in terms of potential realised losses, but also model adjustments versus environment.

GEORGES ELHEDERY

On tariffs, first, tariffs have never been a new feature of global trade.

They have always been there, although we have seen recently a more significant shift in the

US tariff policy. That’s created more uncertainty but, at the same time now, we’re encouraged to see that more agreements are being concluded, and this is giving us ideally more certainty as we look into the future.

There are important things to call out. One, as you did see from our Q2 results, our trade Fee and other income has grown by 4%, and the reasons are multiple. First, we are positioned across some of the fastest growing trade corridors on the planet, specifically the ones in Asia or between Asia and the Middle East and various parts of the world where trade continues to grow significantly higher trends than some of the more traditional trade corridors and we have a leadership position across these intra-Asia, Asia-Middle East corridors.

Second is we kept investing at pace in our services trade sector and now we have capabilities there and we’re able to capture much faster growth in the services trade sector than what has been the growth exhibited in the goods trade sector and that’s another area of strength for

HBSC. Third, even in trade so far that the US is involved in, imports into the US, some of the unique propositions we’ve put forward such as TradePay have given unique support to US importers in helping them manage their working capital facilities and helping them meet the duties they are due to pay for tariffs in a way that allowed us to continue growing our business and gaining share.

You put all of this together – you put the expertise we have with more than 5,000 trade specialists across more than 50 markets where we operate – and you can see the resilience of our business to uncertainty. Actually, it is a period where we can differentiate, continue gaining market share, deepening customer relationships, acquiring more customers and this is what we envisage for the expertise we have and the strength we have in our trade business.

With regards to scenarios, I would like Pam to take you through it, but remember some of these scenarios are including extreme market movements such as interest rates at 1% which have material impact beyond the pure trade impact on our business.

PAM KAUR

Firstly, in terms of our scenarios, we continue to update them on a quarterly basis.

I just want to reiterate

we are still comfortable that the impact on revenue that we highlighted in the first quarter of low single digit from tariffs is still the same. When you look at scenarios more broadly and you look at the lower interest rates then, whether you’re a trade bank or not, it would affect us like any other bank if interest rates go well below 2%, in the 1% territory.

That’s the broader piece in terms of the downside scenarios.

I also want to share with you that, when we look at our customers and our portfolios, so far the customers who are impacted by tariffs, from a credit perspective, they are holding up well. We are seeing no early warning signs or triggers of either lower deposits or additional drawdowns.

Coming on to the ECLs in terms of the model update, the model update was looking at PDs in a more calibrated way across our portfolio and, in Hong Kong, it increased the allowance number going to stage 2, but, on the other hand, in the UK there was a release. Models, when the calibration happens, some markets go up, some down. I just wanted to share that with you overall. The vast majority of the model changes were due to PD migration and then you can imagine how it varies from market to market.

KUNPENG MA, CHINA SECURITIES: I have two questions on impairments. The first one is related to the BoCom impairment, especially that one with the VIU test. It seems that you conduct a VIU test every quarter, but you don’t charge impairments every quarter. It seems that the impairment charges always come together with other bad news. When you first charge the VIU impairment in the fourth quarter of 2023, you got French disposal loss, you got a slight miss on the cost control, so you charged the first time and, in this quarter, you got the BoCom dilution impairment.

I also cover Chinese banks. Their fundamentals are weak, but there were no sudden drops in fundamentals in the second quarter. It seems that VIU impairment charges always come together with other bad news. Can you share with us a little bit more colour on the factors triggering that kind of VIU impairment charge?

The second question is

can you share with us some views a little bit longer term on the Hong

Kong CRE outlook? You increased the credit cost assumption going forward due to the Hong

Kong CRE pressure. Is there any chance that the Hong Kong CRE pressure will further increase your ECL assumptions going forward? I have those two questions. Thank you.

GEORGES ELHEDERY

With Hong Kong CRE, the first thing, as you may expect, is we know this market very well. We’ve been in Hong Kong for 160 years, involved in the sector, and we’re comfortable with the position in this market. That’s very important to call out. Specifically, as regards residential development, this has stabilised. This has stabilised and we’re encouraged by that. It’s stabilised mostly because of policy support measures that have been taken, as well as because of a robust rental market more recently but, when we look wider in the CRE space, specifically around the office CRE space in Hong Kong, we’re still struggling because of some oversupply in this space.

We are encouraged by some additional government action taken to restrict land sales and office CRE and this should work its way into the medium term by restricting supply and supporting the recovery of pricing in this space, but there will be some short-term pressure. Of the exposure we have on Hong Kong CRE, we basically called out less than 5% of it – around

$1.5 billion of that exposure – where we continue to look with focus and attention. That $1.5 billion is to the weak borrowers that are either sub-standard or credit impaired, where the long- term value of the collateral is above 70%.

Against this $1.5 billion, we have a $0.5 billion ECL. It gives you a quantum of what a worst case scenario in this space can be and that is the segment we’re looking at. Across the wider spectrum on Hong Kong CRE, what I can say is our mission is obviously to continue to support our customers as they work through some of the short-term challenges they’re going through but, in the medium to long term, we remain confident in the supply/demand dynamic in Hong

Kong and the appeal of Hong Kong real estate at large and, therefore, remain constructive and optimistic about the medium to long term.

The comment I want to make on BoCom is it’s purely coincidental. There is no correlation whatsoever between an accounting process related to the VIU process versus any other information, but remember the BoCom impairments have no CET 1 impact. They have no CET

1 ratio impact. They have, therefore, also no distribution impact in terms of dividend or share buyback, so I really encourage you to look at it as a pure accounting but no actual economic impact to the bank.

PAM KAUR

On Hong Kong CRE, our book is down $1 billion to $32 billion and it’s mainly because of repayments done at the unsecured end of the book, where the exposure is mainly to very strong, diverse conglomerates, which are nearly 95% rated Strong or Good and have had very little impairment. That’s 42% of our limits.

The increase that we have seen in the impaired book, you’re right. $600 million is largely to the secured side of the portfolio and the ECL stage 2 allowance increase is entirely due to models.

Out of that, the charge we’ve taken of $400 million in the quarter, $100 million is due to the modelling charges. As Georges has said, the area we are most focused on is the sub-standard and the credit impaired side of the book, where the exposure if $1.4 billion. There is already an existing ECL charge of $500 million, so you can see further down what it means from an outlook perspective.

Overall, when we have refreshed our ECL guidance, we obviously stress it with upside, downside and some fairly stringent requirements and we continuously monitor our book and we think that overall guidance that we have given in terms of around 40 basis points captures the entirety of the risk in the Hong Kong CRE book as we look at it now.

On BoCom – and, as Georges said, of course we do not link impairment timing to anything else. It’s a routine quarterly accounting process. Again, we use our models. It’s a value-in-use model. It is very sensitive to input factors, so even a small shift in basis points can make it move up or down and, when we make an impairment, it’s because the fair value from the model is below the carrying value. We have already given you details on the model’s sensitivity to the various inputs in our annual report and nothing has changed in that process.

Just to reiterate

we don’t expect any impact on CET 1 from any further impairments. We also have no impact of this on our distribution or dividend policy and the model will do what the model does. Every quarter, we look at it and make changes accordingly.

AMAN RAKKAR, BARCLAYS: I had a couple of questions, please – one on net interest income and one on costs. It’s a two-part question on NII. At face value, your banking NII guidance is circa $42 billion for the year. Given that you’re annualising at $43 billion at H1, that does actually imply a pretty marked step off in net interest income in H2. I just want to query whether you really mean that or not?

There’s obviously lots of moving parts at play here, but it implies a run rate for net interest income in H2, which I guess people will carry over into 2026. Is there an element of conservatism in that $42 billion? Is there just too much uncertainty around HIBOR? The second part of that first question, if I may, is: can you help me understand the levers that you’re pulling and are able to continue pulling from here to offset this HIBOR decline? I’m specifically thinking about deposit passthroughs.

The second question is around costs, please. I’m just interested in how hard you are pushing the organisation right now to realise the cost savings because, outside in, I think you’re leading a bit of a quiet revolution across the firm, to the extent that you can, and I’m hopeful that you can realise additional cost savings over time.

Georges, I’m really interested in your reflections. Are you running at maximum capacity now, in terms of what you’re trying to do? And just a modelling point. To me, next year – I think it should be flattish costs next year. I don’t think consensus has got that, but a 3.5% inflation rate on costs and the $1.1 billion of gross saves tells me it should be flat next year. If you can comment on that as well, that would be great. Thank you so much.

GEORGES ELHEDERY

First, cost discipline is ingrained in the firm quarter after quarter, year after year. It’s a commitment we have to this discipline. It’s our confidence in our ability to meet the commitments we have and it’s the fact that we are on track on all the cost items, be it our underlying cost or the cost saves. That one doesn’t change. In terms of the cost takeout, the cost takeout that’s taking place now that we’re calling out is a cost takeout related to organisation simplification.

Remember it is an intention to simplify the organisation, make us simple and agile, but there’s obviously an ancillary benefit, which is a cost reduction from de-duplication of roles with limited impact on our revenue generation capabilities. That one is moving at pace, and we just revised upwards the saves we can achieve this year towards the target of $1.5 billion which we will take to the bottom line and we expect to achieve by the full-year 2026.

There’s another cost takeout, which is exiting of non-strategic activities. We announced seven exits since the Q1 results. These in total will add up to about $1.5 billion of cost takeout. About a third has already been announced. A third is being worked on and we intend, once these cost saves are achieved, to reinvest this into our core revenue growth areas, strategic areas where we have competitive advantage and can generate accretive returns, but these are not the only levers we have on costs. We continue working on our operating leveraging cost.

As you know, efficiency and productivity drives including through GenAI, automation and other modernisation of our capabilities will continue as a matter of regular course of business and these improvements will continue helping us manage our costs. I’m not going to comment on

2026 – we have not guided to it – just given the amount of saves we expect to achieve from the simplification in 2026.

On banking NII, the one comment I’d like to make is that we continue growing our deposit base and continue being extremely liquid to support growth in loan as and when our customers start investing again. We called out $83 billion growth in our deposits over the last 12 months. That’s a 5% growth in our deposit base and our deposits drive the lion’s share of our banking NII and that’s a very important lever in the growth potential we can achieve in banking NII in terms of volume growth.

PAM KAUR

Cost discipline will very much continue, not just into 2026, but further on as well and we also said earlier we will continue to invest in ways of increasing our productivity and that will be something which will be a priority for us. That’s something we can control and we have shown you a good track record in the first few quarters. We continue to focus on that.

Coming down to banking NII - you’re right - around $42 billion. You may deem it to be conservative, if you just do the simple arithmetic, in terms of what the run rate takes us to and this quarter we had obviously the headwind from HIBOR, but it was offset to some extent by a weaker US dollar. The timing of how long the US dollar depreciation continues and on HIBOR also is important. We are assuming that there will be a sharp normalisation of HIBOR within this quarter to around the 2% mark. Obviously, any delay, even this delay of the month of July costs $100 million at a 1% HIBOR.

What we will have as a benefit still coming in the rest of the year is the structural hedge, which is a tailwind. We’ve got a reinvestment of $55 billion in the second half at 2.8%. We have to reinvest and there’s an improvement of 2% on that in terms of the reinvestment rates as they stand, so that obviously is a tailwind. The balance sheet growth has been a real positive and it’s mainly driven by deposits. Our Hong Kong time deposit migration in a lower interest rate was four points into Q2, but obviously this can move up or down.

In terms of levers to offset the HIBOR pressures, the Hong Kong time deposits were repriced.

We also saw some balance sheet growth happening, because part of the weakness of the

HIBOR was because of the strong Southbound connecting flows into Hong Kong and that immediately gave us the benefit to our deposit line. We have been also active in Markets

Treasury. The benefit of that goes into Fee and other income. All in all, there are a number of areas in which we can pull levers to be very confident on our around $42 billion guidance for banking NII but, as always, we will be conservative, realistic, and if we out-perform, we out- perform.

KENDRA YAN, CICC: I have two questions. The first is about the non-interest income. I’ve seen that HSBC delivered quite strong non-interest income in both quarter one and quarter two, primarily driven by the wealth management FX and the capital markets-related business.

I wonder how you see the sustainability of this momentum going forward.

The second question is about the stablecoin, because there are several countries and areas that have introduced stablecoin-related regulations. How does HSBC view the cryptocurrency area? Do you have some reservations in this area, or will you maintain a cautious approach in this area?

GEORGES ELHEDERY

On digitised means of payment, we have launched tokenised deposit services for our wholesale customers. It’s live in Hong Kong and Singapore. It will be live in

September in the UK and in the Eurozone and then early in 2026, it’ll be live in a number of other countries, including the US, the UAE and others.

This will allow our wholesale customers – and is already allowing our wholesale customers – to do cross-border transactions with their suppliers or the other counterparties on a real-time basis and on an ‘always on’, as in 24/7, basis. That service is live and is developing and we continue investing in it. It’s programmable and it basically leverages the blockchain technology.

We’re very pleased with this development.

Beyond what we already offer in terms of tokenised deposits, we are watching very closely the regulatory developments around stablecoin. We are very encouraged about Hong Kong, indeed, issuing regulation there. Obviously, the US, with the GENIUS bill, is publishing regulation there. What we will monitor, one, is that the regulation addresses all our regulatory- related concerns, such as financial crime, prudential and other risks.

We will also monitor the issuers of stablecoin and their compliance with these regulations and then, subject to those, we will evaluate all potential banking services we can do with them or customers involved with these issuers. We expect to move at pace. With regards to other crypto, at this stage, we have no appetite to be involved in other kind of algorithmic or other non-pegged cryptocurrencies. As an asset class, we still do not have risk appetite to be involved in that space.

With regards our non-NII, there are a few comments I want to make and I’ll hand over to Pam.

It’s a very important area for us. It’s a very important investment area for us. Let me talk about first transaction banking. We have a leadership position. We’re a top two player in global transaction banking. In payments and FX and trade – we’re the trade bank – for seven or eight consecutive years, the largest trade bank. It’s an area of unique strength, unique expertise.

It’s an area of continued investment, both in digital capabilities and customer servicing, and we continue to see this area as resiliently growing, as demonstrated by 5% growth in Q2, of which

4% growth was within trade itself. That resilient underlying growth is due to the fact that we continue deepening customer relationships, gaining market share and acquiring new customers through all our expertise and our investment.

The second one I want to talk to is wealth – six consecutive quarters of double-digit growth.

Our target there is to grow in the medium term at double-digit rates, but that could be volatile a quarter to quarter, based on market conditions. This is also an area of active investment with intent. Our footprint, our brand, our heritage in Asia and the Middle East in particular give us unique strength to be able to accelerate this growth and continue gaining market share, benefitting from the underlying growth in the market.

We’ve demonstrated a number of initiatives that we’ve already rolled out, be it in Wealth

Centres, relationship managers or technology capabilities, digital capabilities we’ve been rolling out to our customers. Last, but not least, Capital Markets and Advisory, our debt and equity trading – all of whom have benefited also from our focused investment and our capabilities to be more meaningful and relevant for our customers and deliver growth as we did also in Q2.

PAM KAUR

We have been focusing on growing our Fee and other income. As Georges has said, it’s been a focus area and we’ve seen strong performance, albeit, in the last two quarters, there has been the tailwind of market conditions and it’s hard to predict when these transactional tailwinds will fade away. Nevertheless, if you look at the various parts that build up to this Fee and other income, FX was up 7% - a very strong position in FX. There’s a baseline that will always be a growth engine.

Investment Distribution was up 24%. Private Banking was up 12%, and there are also other annuity revenues, which are like our net new invested assets, which are up $75 billion over the last four quarters, so not really helped just by tailwinds, and also, the insurance CSM balance is at record levels, and that’ll just drip into the P&L over time, so that’s also like an annuity.

Now, there’s just one or two items which I would call one-offs or specifically volatile beyond the transactional tailwinds. One is the Argentina hyperinflation, which was the $200 million impact in Q2 of 2024. Obviously, it was not a repeat in Q2 of 2025, but with Argentina gone, that is not going to be again coming into the comparison. And the other was the $100 million related to

Markets Treasury activity, and that will be volatile. It will change from quarter to quarter. So overall very comfortable with the core of the growth, with some moves from quarter to quarter.

JOSEPH DICKERSON, JEFFERIES: Just a simple follow-up on the Hong Kong CRE, which I think you’ve done a pretty good job of addressing. I guess what drove the timing of this charge, because some of the dynamics that you point out in the interim report you could have easily argued were there in Q4, so I guess what drove the timing of today versus Q4? And then, is there any way to gauge what you think the appropriate coverage level is because, clearly, I think you also had about 20 bps of credit risk migration in last year’s CET1 from this. I’m just trying to walk through the moving parts to dimension any further charges. Thanks.

GEORGES ELHEDERY

I’m going to make a couple of comments but ask Pam to address your question. The first one is to reiterate the fact that we are comfortable with our position on

Hong Kong CRE. We’ve explained the area of specific focus, and we’ve captured the outlook for 2025 in our revised ECL target.

PAM KAUR

So firstly, part of the charge, you said, is a model change, and the model changes happen periodically, and that’s only $100 million. The key thing that we look at every quarter and we looked at the last year-end as well, is valuations. Now, valuations is an ongoing process. You see the valuations in terms of orderly valuations, but the valuations also get impacted even on the performing book when you see some distressed valuations. And already, we had started considering distressed valuations as part of our ECL charge for the year-end by giving some probability for those distressed valuations, and this lag on a performing book, because the book is still performing on the valuations as it comes as part of our credit processes

– we do a read-across to the book.

Now, generally, the LTVs have remained strong, so just to say the LTVs which have gone higher than 70% is still a very small portion of the book, but while we are focused on this, we are, as in every quarter, looking at the rest of the book. The real challenge continues with the over-supply in the office space. Now, it’s not across everywhere the same. It depends upon the location of the office space; it depends upon the quality of the building. Has it been new, refurbed, or otherwise? So that’s the piece that we also then bear in mind when we look at the valuation shift, to say, ‘Is there any greater calibration or divergence from the kind of property, the use of property?’ And the overall liquidity in the market, in terms of actual transactions, has been relatively low.

GURPREET SINGH SAHI, GOLDMAN SACHS: I have two, please. The first is on FX. It’s good to see strong growth all across non-banking NII, but on FX, you called out good growth, but I wonder, we’ve seen some unusual currency volatility in the quarter; did that not lead us to generate above normal FX growth, and at 7%, would you call it above normal? So what were clients’ feedback? Were they churning portfolios more, hedging, etc, during the quarter, on FX?

Because I see, Q on Q, also, it’s down.

And then, on loan growth, we see some pick-up in the UK book, but then, in Hong Kong, China region, with the lower interest rates, are we seeing client demand come back in for loan growth, and how do we see the outlook there? Thank you.

GEORGES ELHEDERY

Yes, FX has benefited from increased customer activity due to higher volatility. This is something that is difficult to forecast, but what is important to note is that it remains one of our core capabilities in transaction banking, and we remain one of the top players, I would say top two global players, in this space, and therefore, we do have a leadership market share in this space and capture client activity. It’s difficult to forecast what kind of volatility we may see going forward in Foreign Exchange, but we will continue being one of the main counterparties to support our customers’ hedging activities.

On loan growth, I was actually particularly encouraged with the UK Commercial banking corporate loan growth. It’s early to call it a trend, $3.5 billion growth, but it is definitely a green shoot in this space where it has been subdued for many quarters now. So we have seen the

UK credit book remain very resilient through the last few years, but we haven’t seen it grow, and hopefully, with more clarity about the UK and the tariffs related to the UK, we can see more investments taking through.

The additional comment I would like to make about the UK specifically and then hand over to

Pam is that we’re very encouraged by the UK having also moved at pace in their trade negotiations with trade agreements now concluded with the US, with the EU, since Brexit, and then more recently with India, which is a historic trade deal where we have a very vibrant business corridor going on between the UK and India. And we’re frankly very, very excited about supporting our customers along this corridor to realise the benefits in their businesses.

PAM KAUR

So, just to make a comment on FX, of course there’s a transactional nature to FX, but we are very engaged with our customers, and we have been capturing flows well, and at the back of that, we are accelerating our investment in this business to grow medium term so that we can be best positioned to support our customers.

From a loan growth perspective, so in Q1, we saw growth in Asia, ex Hong Kong, China. And that’s been stable, but it’s moving along, and obviously, Q2, given some of the tariffs news, people were slower in terms of making their decisions. In the UK, our growth was good, but also, our focus was very much across sectors which were growing, so whether it’s in the infrastructure space and so on. So we were very focused, and that held up well. We are doing the same engagement level on our customers across the globe, and from a growth perspective, at the back of the interest rates coming down, the other factor which is very important, and we’ve called it out before, is macro uncertainty. So, when this macro uncertainty continues, the capex decisions are delayed. However, from a working capital, we see some early engagement where people are looking at how they shift and change some of their business models, and so on.

What I do want to say is that, overall, where we have good benefits still coming through from our NII line is our deposit base, which is, as I’ve called out, up $83 billion year on year, so that stays a very strong component, as part of our NII business. And I would say, from an FX perspective, the other thing to bear in mind is we’re seeing strong flows into Hong Kong through the depressed HIBOR, so that is another factor to balance overall in our outlook.

KATHERINE LEI, JP MORGAN: I have three questions. The first is that I would want to ask about what are the outstanding parts of the threshold deduction related to the BoCom, if there is further impairment on BoCom? If there’s further impairment on BoCom, what would the amount be in order for that future impairment to have an impact on your CET1 ratios and share buyback and EPS, and so forth?

Number two is related to the $0.6 billion of restructuring-related costs. What portion of it is in the material notable items, i.e. what I mean is what portion of the $0.6 billion has no impact on

DPS, and what portion of it may have an impact on DPS?

And then, the last question is for Georges - on tokenised deposits. So may I know, for this tokenised deposit, is it only for HSBC clients or also available for HSBC’s clients’ clients? Is that on public chains, i.e. can clients basically use this tokenised deposit to transact crypto assets? So say, for example, if they want to trade Bitcoin or other crypto assets, can they use this tokenised deposit to facilitate that? Thank you.

GEORGES ELHEDERY

Let me then answer your third question; I’ll ask Pam to address the first two. So, today, this is available to HSBC’s clients and any whitelisted clients’ clients, or clients’ counterparties, but ultimately, they need to go through the HSBC standards for know your client, financial crime checks, among other kinds of checks. So the capabilities will be extended, but will be expanded in a way where we remain very comfortable with the KYC considerations to be able to onboard them as clients or future clients.

We are looking, obviously, at stablecoin developments. We believe it is still early to understand how some of these stablecoin issuers are able to KYC the wider client base. Some of them are, but obviously, the regulations are going to dictate, for those who will be effectively whitelisted, what these requirements are, and we will evaluate accordingly over the next few weeks and months as this develops.

Your first question is related to BoCom, and your second question is related to the restructuring- related costs and whether they will be treated as notable or materially notable. Pam will address both, but let me say one thing about BoCom is we have ample room for any potential future impairments, whether they happen or not, before this even comes near affecting CET1 or CET1 ratio or our distribution capabilities.

PAM KAUR

We have $14 billion of threshold deductions - that’s slide 33 of the deck. And on slide 28, we give you more details on BoCom, including the market value in the footnote, which is at $13 billion. So, as Georges says, even if there was an impairment to market value, it will have no material impact on CET1. And in terms of restructuring costs, they are a notable item, but they’re not a material notable item for the dividend.

GEORGES ELHEDERY

Thank you, everyone. I really want to take this opportunity to thank you for your questions. Alastair and the Investor Relations teams are available for any follow- up questions. Meanwhile, Pam and I look forward to speaking with you again soon. Please enjoy the rest of the day. Thank you very much.