Genesys AGM 2023-2024 Transcript

GENESYS INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION LIMITED

42nd ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING

HELD ON MONDAY, 30th SEPTEMBER, 2024

Proceedings of the Annual General Meeting through Video Conferencing (VC) / Other

Audio Visual Means (OAVM)

Company Secretary Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This is the 42nd Annual

General Meeting of Genesys International Corporation Limited.

Requisite quorum is present. May I request the chairman to kindly proceed with the meeting.

Chairman I welcome the members to the 42nd AGM. Requisite quorum is present. I call the meeting to order. May I request my colleagues present here to introduce themselves. Manish Patel.

Manish Patel Good afternoon. I am Manish Patel, Independent Director and

Chairman of the Audit Committee and Nomination and

Remuneration Committee joining from Mumbai.

Chairman Has Ganesh come in?

Ganesh Acharya Good afternoon, this is Ganesh Acharya here joining from

Mumbai. I am ex-chairman of the Audit Committee and the

Remuneration Committee. Thank you.

Chairman Bharti

Company Secretary Yeah, Bharti madam is not there, sir.

Chairman Okay, so also present with me is the partner of our statutory auditors, our CFO, Mr. Ravi Jatavallabha and Company

Secretary, Vineet Chopra. Vineet, please provide necessary information about participation and e-voting to the member.

Company Secretary So, Dear shareholders, this meeting is being held through video conferencing in accordance with the relevant provisions of the

Companies Act and the SEBI regulations. A remote e-voting facility has been provided so that the members can cast there e- votes for all the regulations as set forth in notice of the AGM.

The shareholders who did not have the opportunity to cast their votes, they still have the chance, they can cast their vote now.

As per the instruction which are given already in the notice of the Annual General Meeting. In case of any difficulties, the members can call the helpline numbers which are already given in the notice.

Mr. Sanam Umbargikar, partner of M/s DSM and Associates

Company Secretaries are the scrutinizers for today's annual general meeting. Since this AGM is being held through video conferencing, there is no requirement to have the arrangements of the proxy forms. and we have received the request from some shareholders that they want to speak, so we have provided those facilities.

Registrar of directors and registrar of contracts in which directors are interested, they are open for inspection. Over to the chairman, please.

Chairman Vineet, please provide a summary of the auditor's report to the shareholders.

Company Secretary The Statutory Auditors, M/s. MSKA and Associates and the

Secretarial Auditors, M/s. Roy Jacob and Company, they have expressed their unqualified opinion in the respective audit reports for the financial year 2023-2024. There are no material misstatements, qualifications, observations or adverse comments on the financial statements or matters which have any material bearing on the functioning of the company. Therefore, as per the Companies Act 2013, the reports are not required to be read out in the meeting. Over to the chairman, please.

Chairman The notice of the AGM is already circulated to the members, I take notice convening the meeting as a read. Vineet, please inform the agenda items.

Company Secretary So there are two agenda items proposed here as an ordinary business.

The first one is the adoption of accounts, standalone as well as consolidated, Reports of the auditors and directors thereon for the financial year ended on 31st March 2024.

And the second item is retirement by rotation of Dr. Yogita

Shukla, non-executive director and she being eligible offers herself for reappointment. So, these ordinary resolutions are available in the notice along with the explanatory statement given in that.

Over to Chairman please.

Chairman The floor is open for discussion. I invite members to raise their queries. We have some members who want to discuss. Rohit, can you please call one by one the shareholders who want to discuss.

Moderator Yes sir, our first shareholder is Mr. Naresh Rathilal Kachalia.

The first three registered speaker shareholders have not joined the meeting. We can move to the next speaker.

Company Secretary Okay.

Moderator Next speaker is Shlok Dave.

Shlok Dave Hello, Good Evening, Thank you for allowing me to ask my questions.

First question is what revenue growth we are looking for next one to two years and

What, how the cost will increase over the time and

Where from the revenue is coming and what will be the margin trajectory for say going forward and

What is the order book of the company,

What is the CAPEX plan for the next 2 years and

What was the nature of CAPEX done over the past two years?

Are the margin for Q2 and Q3 sustainable?

Can we improve the margin FY24 as a whole?

And what kind of revenue are possible with the current base of fixed asset?

What is the peak revenue possible with the current investment block?

And can we expect ROE of the company to cross 20 percent?

Are we looking to add new products, services, geographies or client?

Any plan to increase promoter holding of the company?

I think these are the questions. If you can highlight through your view would be helpful.

Chairman These are multiple questions which are there. So well, the company, as you know, is building its own map content. And most of the investments which have been done are in that direction. We have spent close to, invested close to around 200 odd crores in our own fleet of sensors, cameras, aircrafts, content that we have built. We have now successfully created the All India Navigation Map. We're doing three or several cities. We have done the street view of 1,500 towns and cities and so on and so forth. We are looking at multiple markets and that is the beauty of the data model that we have. And we believe that after this policy, the geospatial sector has been liberalized and the growth of the sector will be significant within India, given the infrastructure requirements of India.

So, we would expect internally our target is to grow by 30-40 percent per annum for the next three years. That should be in line with a realistic estimate in terms of where we believe market adoption will be, though we expect market adoption and the growth of the sector to be far higher. and the potential of the total addressable markets in the markets that we are pursuing should be able to afford us higher growth.

We would, we, you know, we would strive to maintain, in fact, increase the margins that we have seen historically in the last couple of quarters. So, I hope that answers most of your questions.

Moderator Moving on to our next speaker, our next speaker is Mr. Satish

Shah.

The registered speaker shareholder Satish Shah and the next registered speaker shareholder Lekha Shah has not joined the meeting. We can move to the next speaker.

Next speaker is Mr. Aman Vij.

Aman Vij Yes, good evening Sajid sir and the whole Genesys team. I had few questions, so it would be good if you can answer them. First question sir is on our order book of around 550 odd crore and with the new recent release of Neom order of 35 crores. So if you can talk about majority of this 500-550 crore of order book can be executed over next one year or it will take maybe two years to execute. Next question is on our bid pipeline.

Yeah, go ahead, go ahead, sir. You can answer first.

Chairman We have most of this is the order book is something that we have to execute immediately. So we are looking at, of course, we can say on an average that we would expect to finish this work within 12 to 18 months' time. In terms of the qualified pipeline, we have a qualified pipeline of almost 3,000 crores, which is a fairly large pipeline, considering the projects that we are or the work that we are pursuing.

The good news about the data model that we are creating in the

New India MapStack is that it caters to a very wide swath of applications and industries and verticals. So, the new geospatial policy actually gives an opportunity to create engineering grade data, which was either not allowed in India or now the policy allows you to do it and I keep mentioning that we likened this policy change to be like the telecom sector where we were in the landline economy, and now we are suddenly in 5G. So on a parallel, on geospatial, we were restricted to do many create a lot of content within India, which now the policy allows you to do. So your company has now taken a leadership role in terms of building engineering grade content and that gives you the ability to address multiple more markets than your pure play 2D markets. So not only do we do 2D, but we're also involved in

3D and on engineering grade 3D.

So I hope that answers your question. Yeah, that answers that question.

Aman Vij Just one clarification and few more questions left. So, when you talked about qualified pipeline of 3000 crore, so you used to talk about say L1 order book one, two years back in AGM. So, is this the same thing? L1 order book is like 3000 crore or this is, what is this qualified?

Chairman No, these are where we have made, where we have made bids and we feel good about those bids. Okay.

Aman Vij Okay and normally what is our percentage win in terms of seeing historical.

Chairman We have you fairly I mean, I think it is a bit premature to give percentages of wins and all that because we have to remember that this is a two year old policy and the markets are just about beginning to mature and, to that degree, there is a latent inherent demand for this kind of content that we are developing. So, therefore, the large pipeline and most of the projects that we have won recently are very marquee projects.

So, these are very good showcase projects. So, we believe that these will lead the way for large-scale adoption.

Aman Vij Sure, Sir. My next question is you have talked historically also that our ultimate goal is to increase the subscription revenue over a period of time. So if you can talk about what is it today and say next 1-2 years, where do you see as a percentage, rough range also, I do not want exact numbers. What can be the revenue from subscription kind of business for us in say FY25,

FY26, 27?

Chairman So, ultimately, our goal is to pivot to predominantly a subscription-based model, because our industry lends itself to it intrinsically. If you were to go by international precedence, then this is the model that is followed by the industry. So, we are not trying to reinvent the wheel here or do something differently. So far, in certain areas, for example, in Saudi, we are not allowed to own the data, but we have a like a multi-year contract in certain of those projects. So, to that degree, depending upon the geography, depending upon the kind of work, the model of engagement will differ. But, clearly the content that we have built when we license it largely the objective would be to go on a licensing model.

Aman Vij So, is it fair to assume maybe we can have 20-30% kind of subscription revenue in the next 2-3 years? Is this?

Chairman Yes, easily, yeah.

Aman Vij Sure Sir. The next question is we have been spending like you talked about 200 odd crore, we have worth of equipments, including aircrafts and everything and we spend a lot over the last two, three years, maybe since the COVID time on both 2D and 3D maps and you had talked about roughly FY 25, 26, both of them will get completed. So in your estimate from say today, how much more do we need to spend on these kind of for building our own IP, is it a small investment or still do you think next 1-2 years we will continue to invest 100 crore, 50 crore kind of numbers?

Chairman Sir, it is a good question. You know, we are glad to say that we have finished the entire all India 2D navigation map. So, we have finished the 2D navigation map. We have done the street imaging of 1,500 towns and cities, which is one of the largest, such exercise done within India and we have done the 3D of multiple cities within India.

Most of the heavy lifting in terms of capacity building, in terms of sensors, collection systems, etc, have already been done. We do not expect any material investments in terms of sensor capacities or collection formats moving ahead, I mean, given the current plan as it stands. We have built scale in terms of our ability to create content and to process content. So most of the heavy lifting in terms of investments have been done. Moving ahead, we do not anticipate it to be in the level in which we have done so far.

Aman Vij Sure, sir. So, we have like 130 crore of intangibles in our books and I believe this is related to the digital twins. So, when do we expect to start executing these big intangibles into revenue? Can this happen in say

Chairman We have already began, you are right, to a degree we have already began that, I am sorry, can I get your name again?

Aman Vij Aman Vij, sir, Aman.

Chairman Yeah, Aman, we already began that to some degree, the most of the content that we are developing, the good part is we are finding customers for it. So, we are following the money, so to speak. So, to the degree that we believe that adoption will be and revenue recognition will be quick is what our goal is.

You have to remember that the money that you spend, yes, for the size of the company is large sum of money but relative to the size of the country and to the size of opportunity, it's a very, very small amount of money that has been invested. We are a

3.3 million square kilometer country. The state of Maharashtra is bigger than the United Kingdom. We have, and not many people know, the second largest road network in the world. We keep complaining about roads, but we have the second largest road network in the world. So we have finished the largest, so we have created content which is fairly significant and the investments made in that are relatively very small relative to the addressable market and the geography of India.

Aman Vij Sure, sir. So, basically, I wanted to understand every year there are two big cost items. One is depreciation amortization of around 40 crore and then employee cost of like maybe 60-70 crore. So do you think in and we have an unbilled revenue of close to 100 crore maybe because of this intangibles. So do you think somewhere in Q3, Q4 we can see a big jump up in terms of deliveries and so our margin and everything. We will look a very different company. Do you think that can happen in Q3 or

Q4 once delivery start happening?

Chairman That is the goal. That is the goal. See, we also have a bit of an issue in terms of the first half because of atmospheric conditions. So, our second half tends to be better than our first half.

Aman Vij Sure, sir. Just last few questions. Could you talk about what is our recurring revenue in terms of your partnership from enterprises like Apple, Google? So, as of today, what is our typical recurring revenue from say enterprises and recurring revenue from digital twins?

Chairman Most of the work that happens in the mapping business tends to have a update cycle. So the good news about mapping business is that the world keeps changing and therefore the maps keep changing and therefore the updates are needed. So, to that degree we are, so for example, if you were to look at Bombay, you know, Bombay Municipal Corporation, what we are doing for Bombay City, Mumbai City, it is a four-year contract and so on and so forth. Each of them have, each of our work has a some kind of an annuity level, you know, embedded in the work that we do because clients also are interested in maintaining the data, right?

Aman Vij Sure, final question sir, on the auto side we have a tie up with

NNG and we have talked about getting more customers. So when do we see say some conversion in terms of actual customers and you have talked about auto scaling. So when do we see that happening and what are the number of engagements we are having in terms of how many customers are we talking and what kind of conversion rate do you think we can happen there?

Chairman Right. Now, we are, we launched as you are aware that we launched the auto vertical last quarter and we have had a fantastic reception so far given the nature of our offering and we are very bullish on traction in this particular vertical. The opportunity and we believe that we would see you know in this year a few engagements beginning and that would be a big endorsement of our offering. We are fortunate to have a partner like NNG who is a global leader in the on the navigation software part and they already have relationships with most of the major OEMs. So that gives us some kind of a kickstart in terms of adoption. Our product is being well received, is being tested with several OEMs right now, and we are hoping for you know, beginning this vertical in a meaningful manner from the current year itself.

Aman Vij Sure and when do we think we can cross a 100 crore kind of mark, which is a good mark for a company like us in say auto?

Chairman See the total size of the automobile market is projected 18 to 24 months from now is projected to be in the 500-600 crore range.

So, this is a very small number given the size of the automobile sector, right? If you were to look at just the two-wheeler market in India, that is $300 billion in size. So, the amount that the automobile sector spends on maps today is very, very negligible.

The opportunity that we have is how do we increase adoption, how do we increase the size of the market. Currently, if we were to innovate and come with offerings that will expand the size of the market because that potential exists, achieving numbers of

100 crores a year and all that is not a very ambitious number.

Aman Vij So you think we can achieve this?

Chairman You have to remember, look at the size, you know, you, you look at the size of the automobile market and look at the spend on the mapping on maps. It is negligible.

And you will find and you know, as a, an analyst or an investor, you know, try, when going, forget you may be a Bombay resident, try even moving around Bombay without a map and you will see that they have become a necessity now. So, even the automobile sector is now gearing towards using navigation as a component of the user experience. So, ways in which you can enhance user experience make it more engaging is really the opportunity that is there. So the real mandate within the mapping industry has got to be how to innovate and how to increase the size of the market, not worry about taking market share from each other.

Aman Vij So you think we can cross 100 crore in financial year 26 or 27 in auto?

Chairman That is the goal.

Aman Vij Sure, sure. Final question, sir. You have talked about in the annual report about sectors like telecom, optics, Bharat Net, solar installation. I believe and you can correct me if I am wrong that each segment can be maybe few hundred crores for us. So any plans on targeting this sector?

Chairman Indeed very much

Aman Vij I mean do we have a dedicated team or we were waiting for math to get completed?

Chairman No, we have a, in fact, one of the things that we are the most proud of is our people and the team that we have. And what we have done is we have built teams which are specific to each of these verticals and we have got specific solutions for each of these verticals. And at some point near future we would like to hold a kind of investor day or shareholder day where we can show the work we've done, because a good part of what we do is that it's very visible and very tangible. We've been in some kind of a stealth mode.

Obviously as a product company, there are limits to what we can disclose and what we should be disclosing. But we are very excited about the work we are doing. And we have solutions for each of these markets that we are talking about. These are not some wish list, but these are real solutions that we have built and some of them with real customers. So, we would be happy to at some point also demo all of this.

Aman Vij Sure, sir. Thank you, sir, for answering the question.

Moderator Moving on to our next speaker is Mr. Bharat Shah.

The next two speakers, Bharat Shah and speaker number 9has not joined the meeting yet.

We can move to the next speaker.

Next speaker is Yusuf Yunus Rangwala.

Yusuf sir has not joined the meeting yet.

We can move to the next speaker.

Next speaker is Rupesh Tatiya.

Rupesh Tatiya Hello Sir, am I audible. Thank you for this opportunity, sir. This is the only opportunity we get to interact with you. So I have slightly longish list of questions. I will ask them one by one.

Chairman Is that Nikhil Gupta? No, I am sorry. Who is on the line? Who is speaking?

Rupesh Tatiya Rupesh. This is Rupesh, sir.

Chairman Okay.

Rupesh Tatiya So, sir, maybe first I will get some clarifications out of the way.

So, sir, in general, when people say annuity revenue, what my understanding is that the revenue is there, but the costs are substantially lower. That is what the meaning of annuity revenue and annuity revenue are substantially higher margin, at least in the software industry, this is one of the meaning. So, that is the meaning, right? Even with these BMC project, you said that which are 3, 4 year, the margins on year 2, year 3 will be substantially higher than year 1, is that a fair understanding?

Chairman Yes, you are largely correct. We are obviously not an apple to apple comparison to the software industry, but typically what happens in the mapping space is that the updates which are there are in the region of 15 to 20 percent of a city. So, you would have to spend depending upon but on an average around 15 to

20 percent is your maintenance cost of keeping the upfront map data fresh.

So your margins definitely, depending upon the kind of commercial construct you have, will definitely improve.

Rupesh Tatiya Okay, okay, that is good to know, sir. Sir, other question is, in your balance sheet, you have intangibles of 80 crore, which are being depreciated, and then there are intangibles under development of around 113 crore. So what are these two?

Is intangible, which are already there, is that 2D map? And then is 3D digital twin, is that intangible under development? Is that a correct understanding?

Chairman That's right. That's the content that we have.

Rupesh Tatiya And this number will, I mean, together this number is around

200 crore now. So this will peak out at 250, 300 crore, at least in near term.

Chairman Yes, that would be, that would be fair to say.

Rupesh Tatiya Okay, okay. And then, sir, in the annual report, you have said that you are looking to launch one vertical every quarter and then I think automotive is already, has already been launched.

But can you maybe talk about other, what do you mean by location intelligence? And then another sector, I think, segment you have said is 3D. So maybe you can give some color about what are our products and when is the commercialization expected and what kind of customer interest we are seeing about these two segments?

Chairman Right, so the markets, when I talk about location intelligence,

I'm looking at the needs of corporates at large in terms of spatial data. So let's look at the banking sector, if you look at retail, look at FMCG, a lot of them require spatial data in some form or the other. So the ability for them to use spatial data specific to their use is what a location intelligence platform is.

This is something that we hope to launch in the Q3 of this year.

We will also be launching our utility in the second half of this year. These are the two major markets that will be pursuing the utility market and the location intelligence market. So, if you were to go by international benchmarks, utilities and specifically renewable energy, solar, as well as real estate, as well as the location intelligence needs of large corporates, these are historically the large markets for content of this kind. So we expect the India to follow suit. It's a chicken and egg situation, which comes first, the market or the map.

Typically the markets follow the map or the content. So once the content comes, the markets tend to follow.

Rupesh Tatiya Okay, okay. And so then another question is we have this 550 crore order book at least most of India order book is B2G business to government order book so And and I think in one of the TV interviews you have said that the market is about to explode and if you don't reach thousand crore revenue in three four years you would be disappointed, if that doesn't play out.

So is it is it fair to say that, I mean, you have already given that we have 3000 crore of, you know, tender pipeline, bid pipeline.

So, is it fair to say that in, let's say, two years from now, we will be at something like a 1500 crore kind of order book? All things equal, I mean, obviously, governments have to execute, municipalities have to award contract and all those things are not in your factor, but everything goes as we are thinking that

1500-2000 crore of order book in two years is totally possible.

Is that a correct understanding?

Chairman Yes, indeed. It is indeed possible. You know, we would be disappointed if it is not the case. You need to understand that, yes, I know that working with government is challenging in terms of receivables and all the other associated issues in dealing with government. But you cannot ignore government also. And most of the needs which are there, which are infrastructure related, the government is involved either directly or indirectly.

Even if you work with Tata projects or we work with any of the other EPC players, Larsen or whoever, they are also dependent on government in some form. So government is a reality that we need to deal with. What we hope to see is to iron out some of the issues with government as our content program matures. So as our map platform, as our capability comes to be more widely accepted in the market, we expect some of the issues in dealing with the government to come down, hopefully dramatically.

And what I mean by that is that when we do work like what we do with Bombay or Pune or Varanasi or Ayodhya or multiple other towns and cities that we are working, we are creating a body of work which now inspires a lot of confidence to the rest of the market.

So our ability to engage in terms or to remove some of the issues which are currently associated at the early stages of adoption comes down. We have been, we are working with the survey of

India that itself is a major stamp of approval in terms of the work that we do. We have recently, this is a very good development that IIT Bombay has checked the accuracy of our data. So, we are collecting data at 5 centimeter level accuracy. You need to understand that this kind of data has never been made in India.

In fact, it is one of the, it is at the cutting edge of mapping on a worldwide level. Why do I say that?

So, I am going to come back to what I said earlier, the telecom policy. So, we were in landline and now we are in 5G, but we are in 5G after 20, 25 years of the liberalization of the telecom sector. Here in mapping, we are going straight from ground zero, we are going into 5G itself through our effort, through the digital twin effort that we are doing. We do not have to, so we're literally leapfrogging several generations of work that has been done in other markets because they have gone through the entire legacy framework, which we do not need to do. So, I think that if Indian industry innovates, there is no reason why the geospatial sector should not, you know, give innovation, which will spread the way telecom, where even your maids and drivers and the, you know, BPL is dependent upon mobility or on the telecom sector.

I think that's the kind of thinking that is required in our sector.

Does the need exist? Absolutely. Just about every sector of the economy requires spatial information.

And it is common sensical. We had one of the richest legacies in the world in terms of the survey of India is the oldest survey organization in the world. Thanks to the British, we had created the first most advanced map of the Indian subcontinent, which helped the British create so much of the infrastructure as we see it today. We need a resurgence of that. We need to go down that same path. And I think that the government is beginning to realize that and that's the reason why the policy was made.

That's the reason that even several other surrounding policies were made, like drones were, and the banning of drones of creation of our own GPS satellite system, and so on and so forth.

So I'm sure that moving ahead, the sector will grow, should grow. And it's up to companies like us who make it grow the policy frame work is there now what companies like us do will determine the, will determine what happens in the markets.

Rupesh Tatiya Okay, okay. I will ask two, three clarifications. So this partnership we have with Survey of India for their force network, is that, I mean are we the exclusive partner for that?

Chairman We are not the exclusive partners. The idea behind the plan, but you need to, you need to leverage it, right? I mean, the government is investing in all this network, but then you need somebody to go out and and to leverage it to its fullest potential.

So, what we did, what did we do? We went and bought our own aircrafts, our own sensors. We have been flying, we have been calibrating, we have been and you know, you are not talking about creating a very accurate data using a drone or a couple of drones over one neighborhood or one city. You're talking about multiple cities, huge geographies. We have collected 1.2 million linear kilometers of imaging. These are when you create this data at scale. People talk about AI, they talk about ML. These are very loosely worded terms, but then you cannot do any machine learning if you do not have a good library of content.

We have built the largest library of content.

That's how you can train your libraries. That's how you can get into a position where you can create accurate map data. We like to imagine that the 2D map data we have created is one of the best in the country. And we will probably, adoption in the next few quarters will show demonstrate you know what we are saying So.

Rupesh Tatiya So what I mean maybe you can give me some examples of what kind of applications where you know previously maybe were not feasible without this SOI survey of India partnership and now they will be feasible and we will be actively pursuing maybe one or two example to understand.

Chairman Absolutely, today we need we still have to you know, invest a lot in ground infrastructure in terms of base stations and many other requirements which are there in order to create high precision data. High precision data was not created in our country before. For that a lot of the surrounding ecosystem was not there. So, you look at, you know, navigation maps.

Let me try and explain that in a different analogy. Navigation, digital maps were made from 1970s onward, 1980s onward. It is only in the 2000, in the early part of this century that when the internet came as a reality, when the low cost GPS came as a reality, when smart phones became a reality, when hardware devices, cheap hardware devices became a reality,that the ecosystem exploded. So even just having a map is not enough.

You need to have a lot of other supporting ecosystem fall in place for large-scale adoption.

So as a parallel, when you want to create also at high level, at high speeds, engineering grade data, you need a ground network station, which is what Survey of India has began investing in.

But if they invest, and no one uses it, then what is the use of it?

So somebody has to sit and do the other side of the point, which is what we are doing. So we are going ahead and creating data.

And we are also making, investing in our ground network in such a manner that this data is very, very accurate. And now we have also got it tested by ID to check as to whether it is consistently at that accuracy.

It is not that you got a building accurate, a neighborhood accurate. You are talking about thousands of kilometers of data.

So that is a journey by itself.

Rupesh Tatiya Okay. Okay, sir. Maybe switch gears a little bit to digital twin sir. So, I think the Bombay contract, BMC contract was for 155 crore and the area of interest was roughly 500 square kilometers.

Pune digital twin contract was 35 crore and I think there also the area of interest was 35 crore. So, maybe you can give some flavor as to why this in which cases the, you know, per square kilometer value is high and in which cases per square kilometer value is low.

And then the other question is, I mean, what, what are, you know, maybe two or three things which will make it imperative for municipalities to, you know, build a digital twin. I mean, in less than next five years, if I were to make a case that municipalities can't live without digital twins, what are two or three reasons for that?

Chairman You know, it would be so much easier to answer the question if you were to see the product. See, a picture speaks a thousand words, right?

The chain is as strong as the weakest link. The weakest link is your manual intervention on any activity. Today, most of the spatial data which has been made is manually done. And the authenticity and the audit trail of the data is very weak. We are now in a position where we are using imaging and very advanced sensors to collect and to publish this data and we are publishing this data in a very intuitive user-friendly manner. So capacity building also becomes easier.

If you are a commissioner or if you're a chief minister or if you are the CEO of a company, and if you were to see our product and if you were to see legacy products, you yourself will decide which platform you want to use or what data you want to use because it's very intuitive.

We are when the grammatical connotation of digital twin means an exact replica of the underlying geography. So, would you like to work with that or would you like to work with an inaccurate system of lines and vectors and polygons? If you were to look at a polygon, you don't know whether this is a commercial building of, you know, nice expensive, this is a chawl or a residential building or it is a commercial building, what kind of building it is. So, these are things that ultimately the role of a map is to allow the user to understand the geography. So, anything which allows you to understand the geography better is obviously an easier place to go from.

Rupesh Tatiya Okay. Okay and sir, I mean, are we into some engagement with, you know, some of the large maybe southern metros or eastern

Kolkata, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, I mean, these are some large metros and generally a little bit more advanced in governance. So, are we engaged with them?

Chairman You are talking about metros meaning metro, you are talking of the cities. Yeah, yeah, we are engaged with almost all of them.

We are now, we are getting inquiries from all of them. So, so one of the, one of the, see the pivot that we are in, you know, it would have been so much better if I could see whom I am talking to, but I guess that is not possible, right? But is that possible, Vineet?

Rupesh Tatiya I just turned on the camera, sir. I hope you can see me, sir.

Chairman Unfortunately not, but one second. No, not as yet, but anyway.

Oh, yes, I can see you now, Rupesh.

So, I think one of the things that we are doing is, and the reason why we are investing in the content is that we have, for example, in Gujarat, we have done two major cities, Ahmedabad and

Surat. And now when we have a conversation with the Gujarat government, the conversation itself is different because they talk about doing something in Ahmedabad and we actually show them the digital twin in Ahmedabad. So the entire conversation changes. So therefore, as the word goes out that this company is actually creating it and they have now multiple cities, the engagement and the interest in what we do changes.

Rupesh Tatiya Okay, okay. So, this is another that cost question, why Pune is

35 crore and why?

Chairman Pune, we are licensing the data to them. So, there are two reasons why, why costs may change. One is when the licensing terms and second is the scope. So, there is a, there is a lot we can do vis-a-vis the digital twin. In fact, there are five phases to a digital twin. And most people, when we talk to them, first of all, what they can understand is the geometric side, which means that basically seeing something, the geometry part of it, the physical replication of, digital replication of a physical object.

But then there are multiple things that you can do with that. And that's the whole idea is behind having that physical, that digitized object of the physical world. So, we go up to predictive modeling like what we have done in Pune, we have done that for floods and we’ll put that out on our social media.

Because a few weeks back when there was a lot of flooding in

Pune and when we had created our digital twin, the authorities were very keen on knowing that you say that all this can be predicted modeling, you can show what will happen in the flood scenario. So, you go and check that in that area, what you were saying, has it happened or not. And behold, we had precisely told them, predicted them what the situation would be. And we will put out a video of this, Vineet, please remind me to do so.

Vineet Sure.

Chairman Which will give an idea about where the digital twin applications are headed. So, when we show something like this, people understand the usability of this data. So, that is where, that is where the adoption metrics change.

Now, recently, for example, the government has announced

2,500 crore budget just for urban flooding. So because that's a phenomenon, almost every year we see. In Delhi, people died.

You know, if you remember, in the coaching center, some people were caught in the basement. Every city is facing these issues. If you're a Mumbaikar, you must have understood what happened in Bombay many years ago. That’s the real problem.

Rupesh Tatiya So yeah, that's good to know so that we were able to predict which area?

Chairman We will send a video watch our LinkedIn video you will see it.

Rupesh Tatiya Yeah amazing that's good to know. So you who would be our competitor you know in the digital twin space and is it fair to assume that because we have such high-quality data, Survey of

India partnership, any digital twin opportunity or largely any

B2G opportunity in India, we will win 60-70% market share in

India because of our strong competitive positioning. Is that a fair assumption to make?

Chairman We have a head start for sure, Rupesh. So you know, it's up to us to maintain that head start. And there are multiple ways to keep that head start going, which I think in the coming few quarters we will hopefully demonstrate that.

Rupesh Tatiya But 50-60% is that very way off mark or that's a fair number to assume in our model?

Chairman That's an aspiration.

Rupesh Tatiya Okay, okay, I see. And so the more interesting part of this digital twin, there are two interesting parts to this digital twin. One is just the data creating.

Moderator Sir requesting you to please keep the question short.

Chairman What I would like you to do Rupesh is that you can connect with

Vineet and I'll be happy to engage with you for further questions. And if there is time left, we can always come back to you, but I'll be happy to engage with you even offline. Rupesh can connect Vineet. If you can display your email ID or if it's already there, then people can write to you and we can set up a time with this.

Company Secretary So my request to all the shareholders is that there are many people in the queue who want to discuss and what I would suggest is let us combine all the questions first and then chairman can answer because there are many common questions coming. So, answering one to one and one to one question will be taking lot of time and many other people would be lacking the opportunity they are waiting. So my request would be let us first combine the questions and then chairman may answer. It will be saving time, precious time for all and everyone should get the opportunity. How do you combine the questions? Yeah,

Rimpa can you, Rupesh would you, any other thing shortly or can we go ahead?

Rupesh Tatiya Yeah, maybe I will just finish the digital twin one or two follow- up questions and then maybe other I will write you an email

Vineet if that okay with you.

Company Secretary Yeah that's that would be great.

Rupesh Tatiya Yeah so digital twins are just two questions one is you know just this creating high quality data but data creation eventually over time given enough time people will figure out how to get data right so the the real competitive advantage would be to get this data and create proprietary services, proprietary applications, which only we can provide. And because we have an early advantage, gets get entrenched into the municipalities or a B2G market. So if you agree with that, can you maybe give some color onto that? That is one question number one.

And then the second question is in this digital twin, can we expect, you know, every year, 15%, 20% will be, how do I say, the SaaS revenue or a services, I mean, you know, right, yeah, our solutions as a service, SaaS revenue.

Chairman Sure, sure, I know, I think, let me answer that quickly. And as I mentioned that you can connect with Vineet and I'll be happy to engage more, but you kind of answered the question itself. The first one that, how do you increasingly create a mode?

Is that how you develop applications around the data that you have? How do you create more and more real-time engagements around the data, temporal data, and probe data? So there are several opportunities that a digital twin data allows you to do which is not possible with conventional map data.

So, you are right, how do you dig deep into each of these markets and create applications which are specific to these markets is really the key.

Coming to the second question, a part of your question about

SaaS model or a content model, that is how it is done internationally, Rupesh. So, it is a paradox in India that we have one of the largest urban populations in the world. We have 5000 urban bodies and there is no map provider for them. So, therefore, we see that as an opportunity also.

Moderator Sir, can we move on to the next speaker?

Company Secretary Yeah, yeah, I would request that let us first combine all the questions. Then Chairman can answer it in one shot because lots of common questions are coming.

Moderator Okay, sir. Our next speaker is Mr. Jayesh Harshad Gandhi.

Jayesh Harshad Gandhi Sir, first of all, congrats on the recent order wins. So, I have a question on one of our subsidiaries, which is AN Virtual World

Tech Limited, Cyprus. We are making some losses here. I want to understand what kind of business are we doing here? And some 2-3 years back, we had 86 crores of write-off here. What was it regarding? That is all from my side.

Chairman Right, so we had launched actually one of the India's most advanced location intelligence platform 12 years ago when we had incubated the subsidiary Virtual world. And at that point of time, so we had done the first speed imaging project of India.

Our goal at that point of time was to that, can a user engage with the city visually, virtually as you would do so physically. And we had achieved that objective and we had done all the major cities of India. And we had invested significant amount of capital that time. Around just prior to that, we had done the navigation map for Nokia and post doing that, we decided why we don’t build our own content. And then we came into a regulatory issue with the government and the defense ministry came and took away our servers and we couldn't continue with the content program. The good news is that they cleared us, the better news is they came with a policy which now makes it clear what you can do and what you cannot do.

So when we now rebooted our content program, basis this policy, out of prudence we wrote off a material part of those early investments that we had done. So, those were a non-cash write-off that we did at that point of time. So, currently what we are doing is we are depreciating the residual value of that, asset and that is why there is a depreciation non-cash loss in the subsidiary which is what you are referring to.

Company Secretary Next speaker please

Moderator Next speaker is Ms. Jigna Shah.

Speaker number 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 have not joined the meeting.

You can move to the next speaker.

Our next speaker is Vasudha Dakhwe.

Company Secretary Seems she is not available, can you carry on? Move next.

Moderator Yeah, our next speaker is Hitesh Doshi.

Speaker number 22 and speaker number 23 has not joined the meeting yet.

We can move to the next speaker. Our next speaker is Mr.

Akshay Kumar Ajmera.

Akshay Kumar Ajmera Thank you so much for the opportunity. I will ask few questions and I think we can have the answers later.

Sir, in our annual report, we have mentioned that the company has been working on various verticals and I've been on this

AGM call also and I've been listening, very innovative and very good idea. So by when can we expect to launch new verticals or can we expect to launch every, you know, every quarter a new vertical in the coming years and if you can elaborate on what different domains we are targeting soon and how much can be the revenue potential from the same broadly.

Chairman I think I had answered this question earlier. So I think the transcript of this interview is available online Vineet.

Company Secretary Yeah, yeah.

Chairman So please refer to it and you will get the answer for that.

Akshay Kumar Ajmera All right. So, my second question would be sir, our intangible assets under developments are approximately 113 crores as of

31st March. So, by when can we expect to start capitalizing this and how much will be impact on P&L every year due to the amortization of these expenses?

Chairman So there are certain, we will be doing the, if I understood the question properly, we would be, we have already started depreciating some of these assets in our books. And these are investments that we have made in our content program. So we already started depreciating these assets in books.

Akshay Kumar Ajmera All right, so impairment about our subsidiary you have also answered, so I will skip that question. Could you also provide insights into the potential market size for our orders from government and government entities within the GIS industry as a whole for our company?

Chairman So you need to remember that until two years ago, there were several severe restrictions in terms of building this content within India. And those restrictions have been removed now, provided of course you're an Indian company. So any data which is more accurate than one meter can be done only by an Indian company. That played into our strength because internationally we have been working a lot in high definition end of mapping.

Size of the market is really a proxy of the growth of India because just about every sector of the economy requires spatial intelligence, it requires spatial data, right, and be it anything.

You take roads, ports, power, you know, renewable energy, solar, you take real estate, all forms of utility, you take agriculture, you take urban planning, property tax, everything requires geodata in some form. We have been using it in a suboptimal manner so far. So, hopefully the markets will start now using it in a more optimal manner.

How much they will adopt and how much the market will grow will also be a function of how companies like ours bring about solutions and display to the market, right? So, if you and I'm going to keep coming back to the telecom sector, why did the sector grow? Because of what the incumbents in that ecosystem did, what did Airtel do or what did Jio do or what did all the other entire supporting ecosystem did? They built a robust network, they brought down the to a position that even ARPU of 20, 30 rupees grew the market to a large enough size for it to be a significant market in this economy. So can we do something similar in geospatial? You know, and I think, why not? Why shouldn't we do it? So we may see innovation coming in India.

We've seen that in FinTech. You've seen that in other digital public infrastructure. This is a digital public infrastructure which is there. So, the potential is large, the need is large. How much it will grow will be a function of what the industry does.

The case in point, we have shown in Pune that there is a solution to floods. So, the market grows, adoption grows, someone has to do something about it.

Akshay Kumar Ajmera That was very helpful sir. I have few questions but in the interest of time, I will connect with Mr. Vineet and probably I can take answer for them. Just last one question, on the, if you can share some metrics on employee expenses like number of employees, average billing rate, average cost of a technical employee, etc.

Utilization and our plans to engage with and you know, induct more employees on our company.

Chairman We are not a typical IT services company. So you can't view us in that manner. We have a very large ground infrastructure.

Most of the people are involved in the content program and so on and so forth. So, those metrics really do not apply to us, but we are close to 1500 people.

Moderator Can we move to move on to the next speaker sir?

Company Secretary Yeah, please carry on.

Moderator Our next speaker is Yashna Bhatia. Technical team, can you confirm?

Yes, we have Yashna ma'am. Ma'am, we request you to kindly unmute and ask your question.

Yashna Bhatia My first question is about the Survey of India partnership. You know, if you could elaborate a little more on what kind of opportunities this opens up for us versus competition. What is your revenue sharing mechanism here? And when is it expected to go live?

Chairman So I am going to give you a slightly long answer to that. The geospatial policy envisages, it is a very good policy and I would encourage all of you to read it. It is a very progressive policy, well thought out policy. And it imagines that by the year 2035 that India will start creating or will have a digital twin infrastructure.

The good news is that we are creating that right now as we speak. And the reason we are able to do so is because we have had some prior experience in doing this kind of work in an international level. The moment that the private sector is in a, so you may also be aware that when we launched our program, it was launched by the NITI Aayog. Mr. Amitabh Kant had launched our program.

There has been a lot of anticipation in government about the kind of work we do because obviously the government wants to see that once the policy is made that there are, you know, follow- on investments or activity being done by the ecosystem.

Now, the Survey of India is India's premier survey organization.

The work that we are doing is a work that they should have done, you know, in a manner of speaking.

So, when we were doing what we were doing and what we are doing, we approached the Survey of India, then why don't you partner with us? Because when now when we go to a city, the fact that we are partners with the Survey of India or we work with them gives a lot of comfort to be, especially on a B2G level.

So to us, the partnership with Survey of India is something that is twofold. One is that we leverage some of the Survey of India infrastructure. And second is that the work that we do gives a lot of comfort to some of the people that we work with in government that we are here to survey of India standards or which are the other government norms which are there in terms of data compliance or the manner in which government would like to see the data.

Yashna Bhatia Sure. Okay. My second question is regarding some of the industrial segments, for example, e-commerce, logistics, BFSI.

It needs some sort of presence in the HW space where

MapMyIndia have cracked it. They have some customized solutions. So, could you talk about where we are in this space?

You know, how difficult or easy is it going to be for us to be successful in this space?

Chairman So, as I mentioned earlier that we hope to launch our location intelligence platform in this coming year, where we would like to imagine that we would meet the needs of the private sector in terms of in the financial services space BFSI in terms of retail in terms of FMCG etc. The market need is large, the adoption is beginning and we would have, we're fairly excited about this opportunity. And I think that MapMyIndia has done a very good job in terms of evangelizing and in terms of whatever adoption that it has managed to do. The market is big enough for players to innovate and grow the markets.

Yashna Bhatia Okay. Third question is on recently Google Maps API and Ola

Maps API had dropped the prices significantly about 60 to 70 percent. If you could talk about the impact of this on the industry.

Chairman In our commercial construct or the work that we are doing, the impact is negligible. The objective behind Google was to grow the adoption of maps. So, Google pricing or map pricing in general, why not just Google is a very complex subject. So, the goal here is for the industry to grow adoption at this stage.

Yashna Bhatia Okay. Sorry, I have a couple of questions left. On the automotive space, there was a press article talking about partnerships being tied up for almost about 200 crores. Could you talk about which are the OEMs that you are talking to and, you know, what kind of top line this segment can contribute in say, FY26.

Chairman Right, ma'am I'd answer this question earlier. If you were to look at the transcript of this, you may get a, you will probably find the answer to that.

Yashna Bhatia we spoke about 200 odd crores in a couple of years. I wanted to more understand, you know, what are the kind of OEMs that you're talking to right now and what are the near term.

Chairman Let me, let me ask you this question. Forget the four-wheeler market, forget the truck or the fleet market. Just the size of the two-wheeler market in India is 300 billion dollars in size. 300 billion. What is that? What is it that they spend on maps today?

All as good as nothing. What is going to be the size of the entire auto sector spending on maps? It is projected to be around 500-

600 crores, that's $70-$80 million and one of the largest sectors of the economy.

So obviously there is an opportunity size in growing the market and growing adoption. I think that's where really the challenge or the opportunity lies, right? How do you grow adoption?

Today for most people, going around in any city without a map has become difficult. For most people in the supply chain or in workforce management, not using a map has become difficult.

So you will find increased adoption which is there. The market will grow. I am coming back to the same theme that I was saying earlier that the opportunity or the challenge lies in growing the market, not by using the status quo as a benchmark of fusion.

Yashna Bhatia Sure, sure. On the B2G side, I wanted to check with you what kind of revenues can we book in this space this year and next year. And like your BMC contract of 150 crores, can each metro city be of a similar or a larger size?

Chairman There are 5000 urban bodies in this country, ma'am. All of them require, you know, data. In fact, if you were to ask me, the single biggest bane that these cities have is the lack of proper map data.

And we did not have a homogeneous map provided to provide this data to them. This ideally would have been the job of the survey of India because that was the original mandate. That is what the anyway the British used them for. If the Indian private sector can fill that role, the market opportunity is large. We have the size of urban population, the size of United States of

America. So there is a need to do this, right.

Yashna Bhatia Right, but in terms of your conversations, you are speaking to so many of them. Do you see it, each of them becoming bigger?

Chairman Yes, there is a, there are budgets for it, there is a need for it, there was no supply, there was no supply of any credible form.

Yashna Bhatia Right, okay. And my last question is that in the past, you know, we have invested in technology, but the market was not ready for it, we did not have a proper policy in place in the country.

And therefore, we had some write-offs. But now...

Chairman I want to correct you. It's not that we. The market was ready. At that point of time, when we had launched, we, without spending a single rupee on marketing and given the size of the internet users, and I'm talking about 12 years ago, there were two and a half million unique visitors of people using us every month. We were considered and if you were to Google some of the reviews of our platform, one of the most exciting new products launches that Indian industry has ever seen in the technology space. That was a response we had for our earlier platform.

It was unfortunate that the defense ministry took away our servers, but by no means was that a unsuccessful launch in terms of adoption. We had come into a regulatory issue that was our problem.

Yashna Bhatia Sure, no, I meant in terms of commercialization.

Moderator Can you please restrict your question to three minutes? We have other shareholders.

Yashna Bhatia Right, this is my last question. I am just following up on that.

So in terms of commercialization, it did not yield the result that was desired.

Chairman We in fact, it began very in a very significant manner, the commercialization of that platform. The problem is that we couldn't, we were not allowed to use the platform.

Yashna Bhatia I understand. I understand. For no fault of yours, that happened.

But, you know, in terms of where we are today, in terms of clarity from the government, it is far better. How will you ensure that, you know, capital misallocation does not happen this time?

Chairman I do not think we had a capital misallocation last time, barring the regulatory challenge. And in fact, although we have written off a large component of that investment, a large part of that investment is still what is the foundational data that on our current platform exists on. If we had not done that, we would not be able to do what we're doing today.

Because it would not have been able to for us to reach the stage where we have reached within 18 months. If we had not done our earlier investments and that in WONOBO. It was because of that investment that our jump started. Because of that investment we have relation with Google. So, those investments are paying off now or they are beginning to pay off now. Those were not written off by any standards. Out of commercial or accounting prudence and because we raised some institutional money, equity money at that point of time, it was considered prudent to write off the amount which we did. It was a non-cash write off.

Yashna Bhatia Sure, thank you.

Company Secretary Next speaker please.

Moderator Our next speaker is Mr. Sanjay Kumar.

Company Secretary You can move to next. Mr. Sanjay are you there?

Sanjay Kumar Hi sir, thanks for the opportunity. So, the 127 crores BMC contract apart from the AMC aspect, can we book the rest of the revenues in this financial year itself FY25 and what would be the share of Veritas within these 127 crores?

Chairman We hope to do a material part of this work in the current year.

As you know that we have a challenge in the first half because of the weather conditions, but we hope to finish the material part of this project in the current year. We are not in a position to disclose our commercial understanding with Veritas at this stage.

Sanjay Kumar And second on auto, can it be as big as say 50 crores in FY25?

When the H2 of FY25 can be?

Chairman We are not in a position to answer it because you have just launched the vertical last quarter and we are under several discussions and lots of NDAs are in place.

Sanjay Kumar Okay and third question on the survey of India partnership. Is it like a platform where the urban bodies can come and approach us or do we have to approach them or do we have to wait for them to start making the tenders because you are saying that seven metro cities or eight metro cities in India can be asked because BMC. So when will we get these orders through SOI or how does this work?

Chairman So the interesting paradox in India is that if I want to buy satellite imagery, that is if I am an urban body, I can go and purchase it off the shelf without any tender. Right, I can go, I need, I can go to NRSE and purchase satellite inventory and they pay for it. So we want to be in the same position.

That's been our argument with the government that why are we any different? You know, we are the same. So ultimately our goal is that if we have the content that a city should be in a position to buy off the shelf our content. So that is really the trajectory we are on.

Sanjay Kumar And how many cities apart from BMC are you expecting in say

FY25 and FY26?

Chairman There are multiple of them.

Sanjay Kumar Multiple, double digits sir, if it is possible to.

Chairman Yes, double digits.

Sanjay Kumar Okay, okay. That is it from my side.

Chairman These are also smaller urban bodies, but they are significant in nature.

Moderator Our next speaker is Mr. Manjeet Singh.

The next two registered speaker shareholders have not joined the meeting. This concludes the total registered speaker shareholder list. Over to you, sir.

Company Secretary Yeah, that is good. And thanks to the shareholders, e-voting facility is still open in the next 15 minutes. So, the shareholders who have not voted, they can still vote. So, I think we have answered all the questions. I would request Chairman to, you know, can this meeting be declared as concluded.

Chairman Thank you and I welcome all the people who couldn't get all their questions answered to get in touch with Vineet and I'll be happy to engage. I'll be also happy to show you some of the work we are doing. So that seeing is believing. So it's and a picture speaks a thousand words as I said. So thank you all.

Company Secretary Thanks Rimpa, you can conclude now.